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Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. #94896708/09/24 08:54 AM | |
Joined: Aug 2024 Rote90OP member | |
OP Rote90 member Joined: Aug 2024 | So Patch 7 introduced very different reactions of Evil and Good Astarions to the same events, like: After this, it looks weird that Spawn would still share many very evil approvals with AA in Act 3 like, for example: But a lot of players still judge characters by their approvals, so in my opinion, it's more than just an oversight in the gameplay, it waters down the arc of his character development in Act 3. |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#94896808/09/24 09:06 AM | |
Joined: Nov 2023 J jinetemoranco enthusiast | |
jinetemoranco enthusiast J Joined: Nov 2023 | Unfortunately, from what I understand from my datamining endeavors, I don't think it's actually possible for them to do this. Their approval system doesn't take branching paths into account. Basically, approvals have no flags attached to them at all, so it has nothing set to distinguish between changes to the character. It's the same for SH. I'd say they could try to neutralise approvals so there'd be less disparity, but it'd also lead to some problems, like AA not having any approval for things he'd obviously approve of. The newer toolkit allows to edit the script so I suppose people could make mods for AA exclusive approvals and Spawn exclusive approvals. They couldn't work together, though. You'd have to pick for which route you're going for. |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#94896908/09/24 09:16 AM | |
Joined: Aug 2024 Rote90OP member | |
OP Rote90 member Joined: Aug 2024 | It's unfortunate, indeed. And mods are... well, it's not canonical character writing still. So in this sense, Spawn would still be forever canonically characterized by approving very evil things. Last edited by Rote90; 08/09/24 09:17 AM. |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#94897208/09/24 09:41 AM | |
Joined: Nov 2023 J jinetemoranco enthusiast | |
jinetemoranco enthusiast J Joined: Nov 2023 | I'm not saying it's a perfect solution or that it isn't quite badly designed, but for me I just tend to stick to what the character says rather than the approval or disapproval they may give at random times. It's very obvious that a lot of approvals are done in a rush under very basic "evil character or good character" measure. |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#94897308/09/24 09:53 AM | |
Joined: Nov 2023 A Anska old hand | |
Anska old hand A Joined: Nov 2023 | Even his dialogue is sometimes wild. When about to talk to Mystra as Avatar-Gale, Astarion advices you to not piss her off because the gang already has enough enemies. If you then follow his advice, he is annoyed with you (or he would be if the dialogue wasn't bugged) while he is delighted and so proud if you did tell Mystra that you'd go for the Crown. There's of course different ways to interpret this, but taken at face value, it is hilarious, especially if you had the whole graveyard dialogue and its follow up the night before. (I don't think there is any distinction made between spawn or ascended here.) Last edited by Anska; 08/09/24 09:56 AM. |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#95177728/09/24 11:22 AM | |
Joined: Aug 2024 Rote90OP member | |
OP Rote90 member Joined: Aug 2024 | People have found an example where Larian did make different approvals based on the path Shadowheart is on: This case does exist already. This happens during Astarion's ritual and Selune Shadowheart disapproves of the ritual, while DJ Shadowheart approves. Just copy-paste one line of code. |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#95178028/09/24 12:45 PM | |
Joined: Feb 2024 illeaillas-san journeyman | |
illeaillas-san journeyman Joined: Feb 2024 | Because of the ritual's refusal, Astarion does not become good, he is still the same neutral evil character as at the beginning of the game. Therefore, there is nothing surprising in his approvals, everything is logical. |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#95178228/09/24 01:32 PM | |
Joined: Aug 2024 Rote90OP member | |
OP Rote90 member Joined: Aug 2024 | Not true at all. What would have been even the point of his two different paths if he stayed the same evil person in both of them? We have TONS of evidence that Spawn is supposed to be his good path and saying otherwise isn't supported by anything at all if we take these messed up approvals out of the picture. |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#95181228/09/24 03:23 PM | |
Joined: Feb 2024 illeaillas-san journeyman | |
illeaillas-san journeyman Joined: Feb 2024 | Spawn Astarion is sensitive to how he is treated, yes. But approvals are different. They are aimed at the actions of the Main Character, and he can approve or disapprove of them in his worldview system. And being a vampire spawn, neutral evil, he reacts in his style, which is not much different from AAstarion - lawful evil. Therefore, as I think, everything is fine with his approvals. In turn, AAstarion can approve of good deeds in your opinion, but for him they can be beneficial, for example. |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#95184329/09/24 10:58 AM | |
Joined: Aug 2024 Rote90OP member | |
OP Rote90 member Joined: Aug 2024 | Well, in my game everyone was against AA. Maybe they've changed it in Patch 7, idk, but it definitely was the case. Maybe you need to be a mindflayer for it and try to eat his brain? I'm talking about my playthroughs as mindflayer Tav when I failed my check not to eat AA/Spawn brain. Vampire spawns are not neutral evil by default in BG3 (Not to mention that Astarion always looked like chaotic for me). Sebastian and kids are obviously good vampire spawns. Larian got rid of the alignment system on purpose. Also, basically Neil confirmed that only AA is a terrible-terrible person, when talking about different Astarion's paths: "...can become a friend, fall in love OR become a terrible-terrible person." |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#95184829/09/24 12:55 PM | |
Joined: Nov 2023 Ametris addict | |
Ametris addict Joined: Nov 2023 | Originally Posted by Rote90 Spawn Astarion becoming a better person and Ascended Astarion becoming a terrible person should absolutely be reflected in his Act 3 approval system.(...) All of his Arc is about him either becoming a better person after refusing the ritual, or becoming an awful being as Ascended. That's a lot of criticism from someone who claims to be a fan of AA. Sounds like you genuinely hate the character. UA may no longer care about taking over the brain (AA is actually perfectly fine with destroying it, seeing how happy he is in the epilogue and that he no longer has to deal with the "stupid" worm), but he sure doesn't intend to miss his second chance to obtain new powers and still enjoys killing people, bloodshed and chaos. Neil also said that AA drops all of his masks, which are all a distraction that he uses to hide his real feelings. AA just unashamedly displays all the darkness that's inside him, while UA still pretends and manipulates to get what he wants. His newest lines in patch 7 further show that he's still pitying himself - with Mizora he claims that "even he deserves better" and when Durge embraces Bhaal he bitterly laughs that he gets a front row seat for his "sins". UA simply adjusts his behaviour because he notices that most people respond better to "good actions" and he can get more from them this way, as evidenced in his "hero" ending. |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#95185029/09/24 01:12 PM | |
Joined: Aug 2024 Rote90OP member | |
OP Rote90 member Joined: Aug 2024 | I'm a fan of EVIL AA. Neil said that AA is Astarion at his WORST. He never talked about Spawn and never said anything about Spawn lying. You are twisting his words. He never said this about Astarion who refused the ritual. What he meant was that AA doesn't shy away from his evil ways. His words which I quoted just confirm it. Quote UA simply adjusts his behaviour because he notices that most people respond better to "good actions" and he can get more from them this way, as evidenced in his "hero" ending. It's entirely your interpretation which has no proof in canon. Even Karlach, who everyone deems an angel, loves killing her enemies. Not to mention, that a lot of his approvals just straight up contradict his own dialogues. Spawn tells Durge: "Don't become his [talking about Bhaal]". He tells them they will save Durge from Bhaal. Why would he approve of Durge accepting Bhaal suddenly? And in the same dialogue he will approve of Durge saying that they don't want to harm anyone anymore. It looks like this approval system was made by completely different people, who didn't even look at other approvals or dialogues. Like: "Let's see, who are evil companions? Oh, Astarion and Minthara! They would approve!" It's like some intern came to Larian and assigned half of these approvals so they make no sense at all. Quote UA simply adjusts his behaviour because he notices that most people respond better to "good actions" and he can get more from them this way, as evidenced in his "hero" ending. If anyone from Larian is reading this: you see how people interpret Spawn's path because of his approvals? |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#95185129/09/24 01:33 PM | |
Joined: Nov 2023 Ametris addict | |
Ametris addict Joined: Nov 2023 | Originally Posted by Rote90 I'm a fan of EVIL AA. That would sound more sincere if you didn't constantly put AA and UA in the same sentences and compared them. Originally Posted by Rote90 You talk like there is any shame in loving villains. I said nothing of the sort. I love fictional villains myself. Originally Posted by Rote90 Neil said that AA is Astarion at his worst WORST. He never talked about Spawn and never said anything about Spawn lying. You are twisting his words. He never said this about Astarion who refused the ritual. What he meant was that AA doesn't shy away from his evil ways. His words which I quoted just confirms it. Yes, he only talked about AA. And I see the opposite of dropping masks when I see how UA behaves. You say I twist his words, but then claim you know exactly what he meant. That's also an interpretation. Originally Posted by Rote90 It's entirely your interpretation which has no proof in canon. Even Karlach, who everyone deems an angel, loves killing her enemies. He literally says "no one minds the killing as long as you kill the right people". He's tactical about his targets. Originally Posted by Rote90 Like I said, I'm not claiming that Spawn is an angel, but he is definitely isn't evil like AA. He confesses he does understand who awful he was and he is actively trying to atone for his sins and become a better person. Your qoutes just confirm my words, thank you for them. What sins? Being forced to do things he didn't want to do under mind control? All he's doing is feeling sorry for himself, and regretting he didn't see through Tav earlier. Originally Posted by Rote90 Not to mention, that a lot of his approvals just straight up contradict his own dialogues. Spawn tells Durge: "Don't become his [talking about Bhaal]". He tells them they will save Durge from Bhaal. Why would he approve of Durge accepting Bhaal suddenly? And in the same dialogue he will approve of Durge saying that they don't want to harm anyone anymore. I see it as him being ride or die with Tav and accepting their choices, no matter how terrible they may be. Unless they end up hurting him personally. |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#95185229/09/24 01:51 PM | |
Joined: Aug 2024 Rote90OP member | |
OP Rote90 member Joined: Aug 2024 | Quote That would sound more sincere if you didn't constantly put AA and UA in the same sentences and compared them. I said multiple times that I love and play both of his paths and I want Larian to be fair to both of them. If you think I don't have the right to do so in order to be called a "true AA fan", so be it, it's your opinion. Quote Yes, he only talked about AA. And I see the opposite of dropping masks when I see how UA behaves. Because you are taking only one of his quotes into consideration. I judge by both. He did say that one of his paths is becoming "a terrible-terrible person". So yes, I see no contradictions in my interpretation of his words. He was very clear that becoming a terrible person is only one of the possible different paths for Astarion. Of course, Act 1 Astarion always wears a mask. And by Neil's own words, AA is at his worst without a mask. He said nothing about Spawn after the ritual, so it's only your interpretation which I completely disagree with. No one from Larian ever said that Spawn is evil. On the contrary, another example is when Adam Smith clearly called AA his "evil ending". Quote He literally says "no one minds the killing as long as you kill the right people". He's tactical about his targets. So? This observation is on point. Personally, I take it as a joke. Completely suits his sarcastic humor. He doesn't kill innocents - this is all that matters. He does enjoy killing bad people - but so does Karlach and even Wyll. Quote What sins? Being forced to do things he didn't want to do under mind control? All he's doing is feeling sorry for himself, and regretting he didn't see through Tav earlier. Being selfish, manipulating Tav in Act 1, trying to bite Tav without their consent, not caring about other people, etc. Strange question after voting for "Spawn is evil just like AA". It has nothing to do with what he did under Cazador. He was evil in Act 1. |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#95185529/09/24 02:31 PM | |
Joined: Mar 2024 Natasy member | |
Natasy member Joined: Mar 2024 | I have to wonder why you're bringing this all up in a thread meant to be about UA. Can you not just construct your points about why you think UA should have different approvals without dragging why you think AA is terrible into it? I also don't think it's fair to start dragging AA fans into this, and accuse us of "wanting him to be like spawn" (no thank you, that's why we don't choose spawn), and like we don't acknowledge he is evil. He is evil. We like that. Being a "terrible" villain doesn't automatically equate to being a domestic abuser. And not agreeing he is one doesn't mean we don't think he's evil. There are far more nuanced and interesting ways to be evil than that. Many PCs are also "terrible, terrible people", but we do not roleplay as abusers. That seems quite a bit off track to why you think UA should have different approval systems. In an attempt to get this back on track and constructive, as an evil character/villain lover, I don't agree that UA's approval system needs to change. We know the VA says spawn is "not exactly his good path." It's tagged as his "good-er" path, as the devs acknowledge that calling him good doesn't fit the bill. They also included a multitude of lines in the epilogue where Astarion can remind the player he isn't good. As far as: "Oh darling, *good* people dont spend as much time in the shadows as I do." Given, since we like discussing the VA, the VA also says he's mask off as AA, which we seem okay acknowledging here, would it not be consistent with UA still being theatrical and mask on, to display pretence and say things the companions, and a good PC, might want to hear, while still holding his same approvals? I think it aligns perfectly with what the game outright acknowledges. His origin ending is him ready to feast on a tied up victim in a cave. And his evil origin is the same as AA. That is to say, the game dialogue and options for UA directly seems to answer your question as to why approval isn't "good aligned" for him. Because, put simply, he isn't good! |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. illeaillas-san#95185629/09/24 02:31 PM | |
Joined: Nov 2023 Ametris addict | |
Ametris addict Joined: Nov 2023 | Originally Posted by Rote90 I said multiple times that I love and play both of his paths and I want Larian to be fair to both of them. If you think I don't have the right to do so in order to be called a "true AA fan", so be it, it's your opinion. At the same time you always complain about UA getting shafted in favour of AA and use negative adjectives when talking about the latter. You're just victimising yourself now and twisting my words. Originally Posted by Rote90 Because you are taking only one of his quotes into consideration. I judge by both. He did say that one of his paths is becoming "a terrible-terrible person". So yes, I see no contradictions in my interpretation of his words. He was very clear that becoming a terrible person is only one of the possible different paths for Astarion. Of course, Act 1 Astarion always wears a mask. And by Neil's own words, AA is at his worst without a mask. He said nothing about Spawn after the ritual, so it's only your interpretation which I completely disagree with. No one from Larian ever said that Spawn is evil. On the contrary, another example is when Adam Smith clearly called AA his "evil ending". He also said Astarion's "good" story ending is not exactly good, just "non-evil". Precisely, when he's without his mask he shows his evil side freely, without filters. Larian said that AA is still Astarion [that we know]. I don't see him as fundamentally different from UA, just acting a little less nice. And he was always a bit "terrible", AA just doesn't feel bad about being true to himself anymore. Originally Posted by Rote90 So? This observation is on point. Personally, I take as a joke. Completely suits his sarcastic humor. He doesn't kill innocents - this is all that matters. He does enjoy killing bad people - but so does Karlach and even Wyll. That was my point, that he adjusts to what works better and not because he's this "good" person after one non-selfish action. In his origin epilogue he's getting ready to feast on a tied up man. We don't know if he's an innocent or not. Originally Posted by Rote90 Being selfish, manipulating Tav in Act 1, trying to bite Tav without their consent, not caring about other people, etc. Strange question after voting for "Spawn is evil just like AA". It has nothing to do with what he did under Cazador. He was evil in Act 1. He doesn't specify these things, that's only your guess. Besides, he still manipulates Tav just before the ritual so Tav helps him and at the end of the game lies that he would understand if Tav wanted to go their separate ways. Also, he's not obliged to care about anyone, that's not a sin. Again, he is still evil deep down, just behaving nicer towards others than AA does. |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#95185729/09/24 03:04 PM | |
Joined: Sep 2024 jessiemeows journeyman | |
jessiemeows journeyman Joined: Sep 2024 | i'm not sure if its possible to change but yeah him disapproving of the nightsong makes no sense to me, especially since he has all that dialog that the player would assume he approves of killing the wizard only to end up disapproving. As for the rest of his disapprovals, they don't really bother me, I know how to keep him at 100 the whole game, I more of see them as him pouting. The only other disapproval I think they should change because it makes no sense for him to disapprove of would be: Those are really the only two big changes in disapprovals I'd personally want to see but other than he just pouts a lot lol |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#95185929/09/24 06:26 PM | |
Joined: Sep 2024 ? 🌸Yume🌸 journeyman | |
🌸Yume🌸 journeyman ? Joined: Sep 2024 | Please, let's all be kind to each other. I agree that Astarion's approvals don't make much sense in Act 3. Though it might be more difficult to fix than it seems due to the coding back-end. The blatant contradictions mentioned should at least be fixed, if it's not possible to split approvals by path. |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#95187430/09/24 06:57 AM | |
Joined: Feb 2022 Location: UK The Red Queen Volunteer Moderator | |
The Red Queen Volunteer Moderator Joined: Feb 2022 Location: UK | Come on folks, let’s not let this thread degenerate. Please don’t attack others’ good faith or right to their opinions. And while personal debates, with criticisms of arguments directed at specific individuals, are okay if all parties are having fun that is not the vibe I am getting here. It’s perfectly possible to make your case and even critique others’ without it being so targeted and confrontational. Though I would also seriously suggest that some forum members stop directly engaging, and even consider muting each other. My preference is always for people to find ways to engage constructively and respectfully, no matter how different their opinions, but there seem to be some folk who are either unwilling or unable to do this on certain topics (or a certain topic). I’m not naming names here, but would encourage posters here who have been warned before to stop and think about whether they’re slipping back into negative behaviours and how they can halt that slide. "You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!" |
Re: Spawn/Ascended Astarion having the same approvals doesn't make much sense anymore. Rote90#95187830/09/24 02:22 PM | |
Joined: Feb 2024 Denis999 stranger | |
Denis999 stranger Joined: Feb 2024 | Quote I'm a fan of EVIL AA. Funny, but I could say the same thing about Astarion as a whole. You seem to want the spawn to be softened and made kinder, more moral. But why not accept that, regardless of the ending, he still remains evil at his core? His vampiric nature and personal tendencies are what define him, and that can’t just be changed by rolling a Charisma check. Instead of trying to turn him into someone he’s not, it makes more sense to embrace him as a character with dark traits that make him so complex and interesting. His good and evil qualities are what make him who he is, but you seem to want to tear him apart. Last edited by Denis999; 30/09/24 02:26 PM. |
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